huge rebel flag gets reaction
tommyYou may have heard. There was a new giant confederate flag flying near the intersection of I-4 and I-75 yesterday.
As you might expect, and as the organizers probably wanted, it sure is getting a lot of attention.
Steve Otto says it is Another Questionable Landmark:
“I would suggest that if Mr. Lambert or the good people of the Sons of Confederate Veterans want to get some tips on how to honor those who served and died, they ought to head up I-75 near Bushnell and drive over to the Florida National Cemetery, a magnificent memorial and resting place for those who served in our military.”
Sue Carlton thinks the Message is Clear:
“Supporters will tell you it’s all about preserving heritage. Sorry, but I don’t buy that wide-eyed line, or the idea that well-intentioned people interested only in remembering their history would use a symbol so abrasive, incendiary and hurtful to so many fellow citizens. Or that there is no other way to honor family than this.”
A Tribune editorial suggests the Flag Flies in Face of Good Taste:
“… if the group is sincere about wanting to honor its heritage, it would make the flag’s size proportional to the veterans’ memorial below. That would be the neighborly thing to do. Yet in its quest for attention, the Sons overlook the greater good. It’s a selfish move.”
If someone wants to put up a flag of the armed forces of a foreign country that only existed for less than five years over 140 years ago, well, this is the United States of America. And partly because the armed forces of the Confederate States of America lost their asses to the United States of America, being a citizen of the USA gives you and I the freedom to choose to pay $800 for a giant rebel flag made in China, and the liberty to raise it 139 feet in the air or so.
God Bless the USA
Loading ...
June 4th, 2008 at 11:08 am
Amen, Tommy! Flying that flag preserves their heritage in the same way that buying those $2 “support the troop” magnets actually support the troops, which is to say not at all.
June 4th, 2008 at 11:28 am
That flag says welcome to the south - us South Florida people have to drive a few hours north to get there.
White Springs the town nearest to the flag is a very nice “cool” town where everyone seems to get along just fine.
I am a frequent visitor.
http://moraca.org/culture/north-florida-is-different
The billboard was an even better “shake up” than the flag.
June 4th, 2008 at 11:35 am
Yeah you have the right to buy it, the freedom to raise,it…
But do you have the poor sense to put it at a major intersection and have it represent the Tampa Bay area for those driving west on I-4 or south on I-75?
June 4th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Bart Siegel
bsiegel@tampabay.rr.com
606 Vanderbaker Road
Tampa, FL 33617
Tele: (813) 837-1599
Heritage, or Hate, Lets Debate!
Those that refer to the Confederate Battle Flag as a symbol of hate should feel obligated to defend their position, especially if they are a public official. I hope they understand how unjust, and insulting, this is, if they can’t defend their position.
Therefore I challenge those that insist on calling the Confederate Battle Flag a symbol of hate, to a debate. I challenge them to defend their position. I personally think they are wrong, and they owe the people of the South an apology.
Those of us that honor the battle flag will assemble a debate team of 3-5 members, and those that oppose the flying of the flag will assemble their own team. We will ask a local university to monitor the debate. The monitor will establish the rules of the debate, and provide fact checking. The County has its own television channel, meeting rooms, and camera crew.
So let’s start planning the debate today, and end this ugly controversy once, and for all! Heritage, or Hate, Let’s Debate!
June 4th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
O! the righteousness! Since when does anyone in this neck of the woods give a f[ig] for good taste or common sense or public sensibility? Got some sad news for some of you aesthetes who evidently missed the memo: America’s Next Great City long ago abandoned any claim to civic sophistication. La Jolla this ain’t. Surrender to the insanity, you’ll feel better
June 4th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Bart, the article above does not mention “symbol of hate.” The links all point to other ideas to honor heritage, and my wrapup simply says you have the right to do it.
Sure wish you had actually read the piece before cutting and pasting your one-track diatribe.
June 4th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
As a Florida native, I had ancestors who fought on both sides of the Civil War. If you want to honor the dead from the Civil War then honor BOTH SIDES. This battle flag is was not the official flag of the CSA. For members of the Confederate Sons of America, this is a bad move. The battle flag is used by the KKK, Neo-Nazis and other anti-American groups. I cannot believe that you really think this is a way to properly honor the dead! To me as a someone born in the South, that flag symbols a racist and oppressive culture. People were enslaved to bring profits to a small elite class. While the majority were taught that they should look down on those of different color. This whole thing makes all of us look stupid. Hey it’s the 21st Century not the 19th!
June 4th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
You have to wonder (out loud please!) about the timing of this flag…hmmmmm
g
June 4th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Of course the ads on the side banner were advertising for everythingrebel.com..heh
jeez (slap to the forehead)
June 4th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
Expect to see a whole lot of this kind of thing over the next six months. We will see many code symbols and hear many code words. People will take the message they want to receive.
June 4th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
anyone notice how crooked the flag pool was yesterday? the weight of the flag put about a 15 degree bend in the pole. I think it will take itself down after a few big gusts of wind — but it was certainly in poor taste to fly what is ABSOLUTELY a symbol of hatred.
June 4th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
anyone notice how crooked the flag pool was yesterday? the weight of the flag put about a 15 degree bend in the pole. I think it will take itself down after a few big gusts of wind — but it was certainly in poor taste to fly what is ABSOLUTELY a symbol of hatred.
June 4th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
double post and misspelled ‘pole’ — oops
June 4th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Now that I read the article I was commenting on the wrong big rebel flag on I-75 … OK 2 is too many.
June 5th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
A Confederate’s Last Request
Drape the red stained banner,
o’er my coffin when I’m gone;
place the Southron flag beside
the flowers strewn along
the length of dirt allotted me
when I have passed away
and carve into my tombstone,
the flag in marble gray.
Sing the song of ‘Dixie’,
each time you venture near;
for deep beneath the soil
my ears will strain to hear,
the melody of Southron cause,
that I have loved so long.
Bring to me Confederate Rose,
long after I am gone.
So promise me, then as I sleep,
though bones may long decay,
you’ll fly the flag of Southron men
that fought in hallowed gray.
Linda Lee
June 5th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
I think a debate on the subject of the Confederacy’s place in history is long overdue. It is a very complicated subject. Obviously slavery was an issue, but was it the issue responsible for the war? I personally do not think so. I think those that are willing to state emphatically that it is a symbol of hate should have to support their assertions, even more so than those who claim it is not. Remember this is the United States, you are innocent until proven guilty. You can’t have it both ways!
June 5th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Ah yes, you are so right. The South was growing weary of paying high taxes and tariffs to build up the economy of the north. The South never had a flag flying over a slave ship, but they sure had them leaving New England for the dark continent, all flying the federal flag. If cotton could be grown in the tundra of the north, they would have kept their slaves longer than they did. Instead they SOLD them South, then decided after counting their money, the slaves should be free. Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation free’d no one, but they don’t teach that in school, instead it’s a steady stream of, “The South was wrong, the South was wrong.” Makes me rather ill.
LL
June 5th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Thought these quotes might spark some debate;
“Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing gov’t and form a new one that suits them better.”
A. Lincoln Jan 12, 1848
“If you bring these leaders to trial it will condemn the north, for by the Constitution, secession is not rebellion.”
Chief Justice Chase
June 5th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
People uniformed about the War Between the States and cry, “Hate symbol,” ought to study a few of ole Abe’s quotes. Here’s one for those who have no knowledge of the WBTS;,
“I can conceive of no greater calamity than the assimilation of the Negro into our social or political life as our equal. We can never attain the ideal union our fathers dreamed, with millions of an alien, inferior race among us, whose assimilation is neither possible nor desirable.”
Once again, spoken by father Abraham
After writing the EP, ole Abe wanted to repatriate the negro.
June 6th, 2008 at 1:47 am
Interesting issue, and even more interesting comments. During my life, I’ve seen way more racist, ignorant people showing that flag than people who are honoring there ancestors. So I can understand how it could be interpreted as a negative symbol.
June 6th, 2008 at 10:09 am
The biggest problem is the racist attitude that many have today. Like I stated before, my family has been in the South since the early 1700’s. But I have found that there is serious race problem still in the nation. Black Americans rightfully view the Battle Flag as a symbol of an old ecomonic system that was based on race superiority and elitism. By bringing up historical quotes, flying this huge flag when our nation has it’s first non-white nominee for President of the United States, it seems that some do not want to see the day when the descendants of slave owners and descendants of slaves can stand together as one.
June 6th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
“The mail: Confederate flags, stadium, water, 55 mph speed limit”
http://blogs.tampabay.com/troxler/2008/06/the-mail-confed.html
June 6th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Bart Siegel
bsiegel@tampabay.rr.com
606 Vanderbaker Road
Tampa, FL 33617
Tele: (813) 837-1599
“If perception is reality, let’s change perception.” Lunelle Siegel
Let’s push the debate idea with every opportunity we have. We have a unique opportunity. The reason they don’t want to debate is because they know that the facts do not support their position. They want “Southerners” to act reconstructed, and allow the winners of the war to write history. The politicians do not want to waste their political capital on this topic. The funny thing is that Tampa Bay may benefit tremendously economically if this is handled correctly. “The Southern City with the Latin accent.” Tampa has an extremely rich historical legacy, and historical tourism is a multi-billion dollar industry. We don’t have to be a “me-too” Florida city. We can have our own identity, other than another sports city. Besides the concepts are not mutually exclusive.
I am not planning to be one of the debaters unless that is determined to be the desired case. I would like to see Ron Kennedy, Dr. DiLorenzo, Walter E. Williams, and/or HK Edgerton as our panelists. I am sure there are even better panelists, and when the time comes we will seek suggestions. I will participate only as requested.
Please send this around. We have them on the run. Deo Vindice
Your fellow compatriot,
Bart
June 6th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
I SAY HELL YES AND FINALLY SOMEONE IS REMEBERING THE PAST AND NOT JUST THE PRESANT! THIS COUNTRY WOULDNT BE THE SAME IF IT DIDNT HAVE ITS SOUTHNERS HERITAGE!!! IM A PROUD G.R.I.T.S. (GIRL RAISED IN THE SOUTH) AND ILL DRIVE THAT HOUR JUST TO HONK MY HORN IN SUPPORT ALL DAY LONG!
June 6th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
http://littleurbanity.blogspot.com/2004/12/deo-vindice.html
(excerpts)
How to translate the latin phrase “deo vindice”? It came through a student, whose brother-in-law was having it engraved on a reproduction of the Confederate Seal. The student said that her relative, who is a “Southern Heritage” aficionado, told her he thought it meant “God will vindicate.”
Vindex (vindice is a form of this word) often means “protector” or “champion,” and I’m sure that’s what the Confederate Seal maker was thinking; the intended meaning was “with God as our champion.”
But there are plenty instances in classical Latin when vindex means “punisher.”
In this light, deo vindice becomes tragically ironic: “with God as our punisher” seems a good epigram for our national failure of that “little test.”
So let the Sons of the Confederacy engrave deo vindice on their seal, and let the Latin mean what it will.
June 6th, 2008 at 8:26 pm
JUST THINK,,WITHOUT THE CONFEDERATE WAR AND FLAG,MARGERT MITCHELL COULD NEVER HAVE WRITTEN GONE WITH THE WIND ,AND CLARK GABLE COULD NEVER HAVE SAID I DONT GIVE A DAMN AT THE END OF ONE OF THE MOST SPECTACULAR FILMS EVER MADE IN THE USA.
June 7th, 2008 at 3:17 am
The flag isn’t the problem. This event has just exposed long-standing issues that I don’t think will ever be resolved.
One thing I have learned by reading about the issue is that I, as a native born Floridian, will never be considered the equal of anyone from “up north” or elsewhere. It doesn’t matter how much Byron, Shelly and Keats I can quote, my place of birth and accent make me less of person than you.
June 7th, 2008 at 11:38 am
As much as I would love to have the Kennedy brothers and H.K. on the forum, I think that is highly unlikely. My grandmother was born in Tampa 102 years ago; her people came from South Carolina, my mother’s side has been here since 1830, I was born in the state, so my history is very Southron. In 61 years I have seen this ‘Southern’ state change from Southern to the new yankeeland. I am forever hearing, “We don’t do it this way up north.” I have continually moved further north to get more Southron. I saw the beautiful flag go up at I-10 & I-75, a few years back. As a matter of fact my above poem was read at the ceremony. The Constitution does not say, “We have the right to not be offended.” There is plenty of things in this world that offend me, but the world does not stop nor does it care. The battle flag was just that, a battle flag, in a war that wanted to seperate from the yankee union. How many times do we Southrons have to wince when Leno or the other 11:30 boob gets on and makes fun of the South? When was the last movie made that did not picture Southrons as idiots? To many people fly the battle flag and could not tell you who was the president of the C.S.A. Our children are not taught their history, yet are taught of the pilgrim’s landing. This state is to busy paving over it’s own history to ever try and teach any.
June 7th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
That is the dichotomy of being a young and progressive Southerner. “The South” is in no way inferior to “The North”–morally, spiritually, or intellectually.
I am not ashamed that some of my relatives fought and died in the Civil War for the South, nor I am not ashamed that some of my relatives fought and died for the North. Their portraits hang side by side on my wall.
I recently cancelled my subscription to the New York Times as I couldn’t stand reading about their ignorant and stereotypical views about the South.
Pre-Civil War the elite of Southern society were as educated as the elite of the North. In fact, the Planters were largely more educated than the robber barons, very few of who knew Latin, or who Homer was.
The South used real slaves, the North used pseudo-slaves–the largely illiterate immigrant masses “yearning to breathe free”. Both got something for nothing.
The history of the South is sometimes unfortunate, just as the history of the North is, in turn just as is the history of the US. In many ways the way the South does things today is superior to the North does them. No one is perfect.
In short, I am proud of who I am, a young, progressive Southerner, and no I am not looking to the North, or the West, for guidance.
The entire country is racist, black and white and red and yellow, that’s a problem, it might be human nature, but Americans of African ancestry can certainly help this situation by trying harder to better their own. I believe that if a significant proportion of my fellow Americans of German ancestry lived in “the hood” and were responsible for a large proportion of crime, I’d be down there trying to assist them in “breaking the cycle”.
The flag going up is great, if nothing more it sparks the beginning of a dialogue that’s needed to happen for a long time.
June 8th, 2008 at 9:05 am
“JUST THINK,,WITHOUT THE CONFEDERATE WAR AND FLAG,MARGERT MITCHELL COULD NEVER HAVE WRITTEN GONE WITH THE WIND ,AND CLARK GABLE COULD NEVER HAVE SAID I DONT GIVE A DAMN AT THE END OF ONE OF THE MOST SPECTACULAR FILMS EVER MADE IN THE USA.”
———————————
And for that 600,000 lives were lost?
June 9th, 2008 at 9:57 am
Let me tell you a true story. In 1956 I Took a course in histoty at OSU with one of my sorority sisters from Georgia. When we got to the civil war she was appalled,she kept saying to me ,,,,but we one the war, this history book says we did not. Is not this the problem….
June 9th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
We just ran out’a bullets before the yanks ran out’a immigrants!
June 11th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
Are we done debating? Funny how people will gripe and complain about our Battle Flag, but can not take the time to tell us what and why they are complaining.
June 21st, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Eveeryone knows that more Americans died in this war than anyother war. No matter what you say both sides were All AMERICANS.
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Junior,
Who said anything different? Cultures were different, then as well as today.
July 3rd, 2008 at 3:35 pm
RE: Tampa - Confederate Flag
For those who would like to know:
It has been leaked that Hillsborough County Board of County Commissioner are planing not only to refuse to renew the permit for the flag, but to lease bill boards in the area of I-4 and I-75 to apoligize for the hugh Confederate Flag.
Abolishing slavery was not the main issue that leading to Civil War, but was used to gain support from the sympathetic norther state. Do people just not read their history? The flag, while being a symbol of slavery to one person is a symbol of proud southern haritage to one who lost ancestors in the Civil War.
I am a christian, and therefore the rainbow has one meaning for me, yet it has another for gay people.
Each of finds offince in one thing or another. In these hard economic times I feel tax dollars could find a better use than apologetic billboards. If you agree - Let them know with your phone call, letters and emails(google: Hillsborough County Government Florida).
July 3rd, 2008 at 3:38 pm
RE: Tampa - Confederate Flag
For those who would like to know:
It has been leaked that Hillsborough County Board of County Commissioner are planing not only to refuse to renew the permit for the flag, but to lease bill boards in the area of I-4 and I-75 to apoligize for the hugh Confederate Flag.
Abolishing slavery was not the main issue that leading to Civil War, but was used to gain support from the sympathetic norther state. Do people just not read their history? The flag, while being a symbol of slavery to one person is a symbol of proud southern haritage to one who lost ancestors in the Civil War.
I am a christian, and therefore the rainbow has one meaning for me, yet it has another for gay people.
Each of finds offence in one thing or another. In these hard economic times I feel tax dollars could find a better use than apologetic billboards. If you agree - Let them know with your phone call, letters and emails(google: Hillsborough County Government Florida).